Posts in "Software Engineering" category

The Java community retaliates – "PHP is …"

Ok, it’s time to let the people of #java on Ef-net let us know what they thought of PHP in the period from July to December 2005 (read: yes, I’ve done a grep -iH “php is” on my #java irclogs). Of course, we all know the PHP developers had strong opinions on Java, so this will be interesting.

< @Tenchi> php is terd < @aut> straight php is faster than using php to transform xml < waz> don’t forget “PHP is slow!” < pr3d4t0r> waz: “PHP is slow! Use Perl.” < AstroIvan> and php is slow < jjava> and php is slow < tomh> so php is faster when you dont use clusters? < @joeblowgt> and php is fine for many types of websites < @jwzrd> BoZo, no you are not. Php is not something you program. < @jwzrd> deigo, php isn’t coding < @top^> a bunch of if statements? now that’s why php is not java < SouljaGoD> PHP is fairly easy for this kind of thing < mele> php is nice ;) < pr3d4t0r> kinabalu: PHP is like a gun. < mele> Tenchi: php is fun :) < @GnarlyBob> php is more scalable < eth-> you think PHP is understandable? hahaa < @boxed> you know, php is pretty much like java except with a chaotic standard library and a billion $’s thrown randomly in the code < jjava> but php is able to defy gravity < @jwzrd> hahaha php is such a configuration shithole < @jwzrd> PHP isn’t allowed < Jippi> i know – php5 got oop as a ‘bonus’ hehe.. php isnt orignally a oop language < @jwzrd> PHP is annoying though :) < CnfsdKid> php is forever horrible. < CnfsdKid> DeanC: php is retarded. < Number-6> php is quite retarded. < tonicxt> Php is nice as it has build in user-input sanitization automatically enabled on all user-input -=- < CnfsdKid> geerd: maybe php is more your style. < gripe> geerd: php is for semi-literate high school kids to write blogs with < porc> php is simply not an enterprise class language < geerd> and PHP is for the web, you dont listen for any keys

Well, we see they have humor; “PHP is slow, use Perl” is of course a reference to the idiotic “Java is slow, C is better” which these developers hear too often. So, they throw it over to the PHP community, where it, of course, is just is stupid.

Also, notice how few opinions about PHP in #java there are compared to the number of opinions on Java in #PHP in the same time period; Java coders are too cool to care about PHP. I mean; they’re coding Java, enterprise applications. They don’t kid around. It’s real OO, not “We kind of .. uhh, well, got some OO in the latest PHP5 release guys, uuh..” (Zend).

In case you’re wondering I consider myself a Java developer foremost, and a PHP developer second ;) .. but “times, they are a-changin'” as Bob Dylan sings.

The IRC community speaks out – Java vs. PHP

Welcome to my new column. It’s basically a grep of all mentions of java in #php from July to December 2005.

The nicks have not been hidden to protect the guilty.

This is what the people in #php on ef-net think about Java as a programming language:

  • < Johnboyo> java is awful, im a symbian programmer by trade and i avoid it at all costs
  • < @feti> better than a low-level language. and java is high-level
  • < nforbes> LOL JAVA IS SLOW
  • < tWiZtEr> java is slow and gay
  • < dreamache> java is so unbelievably slow, i mean.. have you ever visited sites with java menus? my gawd
  • < vvortex3> C# vs Java is such a bitter debate
  • < SouLShocK> java is medium?
  • < @Dragnslcr> Java is one of the best languages for GUI apps. Not to say that it’s all that good
  • < paladin`> what phek is trying to get at is, php “executes” code serverside, whereas java is handled and interpreted by the client. what you are likely looking to do is to add a tag such as onload=”function();” to your html.
  • < m0O> da_ – programming java is nice thou :)- the funnest to program especially using hte eclipse interface, makes it even more fun
  • < Inkvenom> java is a resource whore…
  • < +ronny_fro> java istn drag and drop necessarily
  • < pulse__> if you’re looking for retards, #java is the place to go
  • < leterip> i hate how java is a programming lanugage becasue they use the guise of compiling
  • < Idle`> Java is… C# is MS’s java killer, although theyll never admit it
  • < planetxm> we all know java is a beautiful language for OOP.. and the fact they took c# syntax is no suprise coming from M$.. c# is like ‘the perfect language’
  • < badz> java is popular … you couldnt build a os out of it… c is just the real thing.
  • < Chr|s> but to say that Java is useless is a bit of a stretch
  • < kainam> java is ass
  • < @feti> hindog: because Java isn’t extensible, C/C++ are
  • < +dreamache> java is like so horribly slow
  • < slacker_> i know java is
  • < +SunTzu> god java is a resouce hog
  • < aonic> but java is a resource whore
  • < Chr|s> Java isnt that bad, depends on what you’re intended use is
  • < stutter-> Chr|s: i guess if your intended use is fat slow application – java is good
  • < @feti> i bet you guys couldn’t name one reason why objective C is better than Java. and if you can you’re an idiot, cause you use the tool for the job. and you probably don’t even know WHY java is used so much, let alone have room to talk why it sucks.
  • < @Dragnslcr> Java is a good language for a lot of stuff, but some of the things it does are really annoying
  • < fietronic> Dragnslcr: the thing with java is that it runs on most everything new
  • < phek> java is good as a non web based programming language
  • < el_taco> java is so portable.
  • < fietronic> m-00kie: java is a web application…
  • < Yaeyama> crayola: that’s because java is teh suck and the community would be up the creek without those kinds of submissions ;)
  • < +YorT> Rhasta, java isnt truly cross platform either :P
  • < Colloid> ok i don’t mean to spam, but i’m a java hater and this one is too good: “Saying that Java is nice because it works on all OS’s is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders”
  • < MovieTrai> Colloid, just because java is to hard for you doesn’t mean it sucks
  • < +dreamache> java is unbelievably slow
  • < sp0n9e> java is nothing but OO and some things are such a pain
  • < Two9A> And it’s probably more efficient because every array access in Java is automatically bound-checked
  • < +Shadda> and java is nothing but overflowing with documentation on OO design
  • < zenogais> Java isn’t helly-slow
  • < hindog> pretty fuckin sweet.. I use PHP + Java for my latest project, where java is the actual engine.. and php is the “front” to the engine
  • < hindog> h4x012, java is good.. .NET is good
  • < +SunTzu_> java is a hog
  • < Woxxy> SpydaByte: speed is relative. whereas c++ has better performance, java is faster to code
  • < Asmodeo|p> dunno your opinnion but i think java is gay
  • < @Shai-Tan> java is a mess
  • < _crayola> the only real java is java because its platform independent.
  • < @w0lfy> < ?php echo 'java is gay kthx'; ?>
  • < codepoet> java is so damn annoying
  • < @horros> Java isn’t slow.
  • < +YorT> lod, you do realise java is fucken fast right?
  • < hindog> java is not interpreted at the source-code level
  • < segosa> java is not js
  • < Inkvenom> Shadda: do you think java is or isn’t a resource whore?
  • < Inkvenom> ron_frownZendar: do you disagree that java is a resource whore, it has it’s benefits, but you have to admit that
  • < +SunTzu_> im sick at thinking java is the way
  • < @Dragnslcr> Java is mostly OO, but it still has non-object basic data types (integers, reals, etc.)
  • < +feti> anybody that tries to relate PHP to Java is a complete idiot to begin with
  • < InkLaptop> java is a resource whore….
  • < putopaul> java is the best right now
  • < ftzdomino> writing servers in java is fun. hopefully they fixed all of the connect() timeout stupidity
  • < Meritt> because java is the devil.
  • < Meritt> PHP is an efficient scripting language modeled after C. Java is a cannabilistic ogre woman.
  • < nomopofom> java is like uber pro style?
  • < m0rales> java is huge but comparing java to php would get us nowhere
  • < m0O_> java is elite
  • < m0O_> java is elite!
  • < m0O_> .NEt/JAVA is slower I assume
  • < baloo_> java is meant for you, php is meant for us
  • < m0O_> so powerfull, java is in ur hands when programming
  • < Arrakis> java is just plain suckage
  • < Flixi> cdg: First it was in the html head. Not I copyed the java code to a other file and instead of the script tag I got < ? include menujava.php ?> and it’s the same java code both places.. I thought it would just copy the java code in to the html file because php is server side and the java is client side
  • < m0O_> Im in 4th year university, and java is sick :) We just handed in a EJB application yesterday, group of 5, 10 gorups in class, and only my groups finished it. And I was the only person in the group who did it , the rest did the report since they new shit
  • < @ronny_poo> I think in general java is a glimpse at where things are going, but theres just too much shit thats half assed in java frameworks
  • < _piker_> #java is worthless anyways’
  • < sp0n9e> java is ass :P
  • < @Shadda> java is great…when coded right
  • < +noc`> Java is good
  • < zid`> java is insecure shit on windows
  • < rza> java is actually good
  • < syc> java is nicer to work with. in my opinion.
  • < sp0n9e> java is more than a language
  • < syc> java is an addiction to platform independant code!
  • < SunTzu> java is cool just wish they would get the garbage collection sorted out :P
  • < Chr|s> Java is so much nicer in that regard… ;-P
  • < virax> digitok: All java is bullshit.
  • < syc> java is good.
  • < _m0O> still java is the ruler :)
  • < +noc`> and java is the OO king dammit
  • < _m0O> java is the king of OO
  • < _m0O> all I said is java is king
  • < sp0n9e> java is getting better at memory management

That’s it! Tomorrow we’ll have a look at what the #java people think of PHP. Fun, huh? :)

PHP Frameworks that I have on my to-checkout list

It’s exciting times for PHP. Quality frameworks are popping up like daisies mushrooms skunk cabbage, and it seems like every bob the builder out there is releasing one. Please leave a comment if you know of a framework I haven’t mentioned, or if you have experience with one in the list. For the project I’m doing at the moment I’m using Seagull, but there are so many good frameworks out there – and I’d like to test at least 3-4 of them by implementing a real-world project.

I’ll keep this list updated as I find new frameworks, so bookmark it ;)

Some of the PHP frameworks out there, and my first impression after a 2-minute browse on their homepages:

  • Symfony: PHP5, looks like it could be ‘heavy’ and difficult to setup. Caught my attention when they ran the sleek advent calendar and implemented a real-word project (askeet) in 24-days. A must try.
  • QCode: PHP5, suitable for large applications – but they claim it is also lightweight (although in my 2-minute glance I got the impression they were a ‘proper’, heavy framework). Also a must try.
  • Prado:PHP5, also looks a bit heavy.
  • LightMVC: PHP5, Ah – finally a light framwork ;-) .. Maybe too light? Want to try, but no must try.
  • cakePHP: PHP4/5: Also lightweight, looks very promising (seems like it has a good developer base, lots of projects (cakeforge, cakefoundation, etc.) and their main developers hang on #cakephp on freenet. Doesn’t seem to come with login/user/role management though. Anyway, I’m an aspiring cake baker. A must try.
  • Fusebox: ColdFusion framework gone PHP. Supposedly very mature. Don’t know much about it.
  • Swat: PHP5, Created and backed by a commercial company, but others are welcome to partake. Several of the demos didn’t work when I tested it, so .. no must try.
  • Ister: PHP4, lightweight.
  • Sourdough: PHP5, don’t know much about it but check it out :)
  • Seagull (BSD): PHP4, as mentioned I’m currently implementing a project in Seagull. It uses PEAR for much of it stuff (DataObjects, template system; Flexy, but it’s pluggable). I’m using a pretty old version though (0.4.7, since it’s the latest stable for production) – but 0.5.5 looks very promising. It’s kind of a mix between a framework and a CMS – it has a publising module. Anyhow, it’s not very lightweight, so it might not be suitable for all projects. It comes with session handling, user management (roles, etc.) +++ Check it out.

Added 02/03/2005 (that’s March the second for you Americans) – of course, the list never ends ;)

  • Achievo ATK – brands itself this way; “unlike other application frameworks that mainly provide a large set of utility classes, ATK provides a complete framework that requires only small amounts of code to get usable applications, while maintaining full flexibility.” FIAI: Wizard type install, easy. Unfortunately the admin interface looks somewhat amateurish, but I guess it’s maybe just a quick example of the different modules or something.
  • PHP on TRAX – Ruby on Rails on PHP.
  • P4A (GPL) – PHP For Applications, OO framework for building web-based event-driven applications. It features tableless HTML, accesskey support, point&click app generator, auto data type recognition, UTF-8, i18n/l10n, PEAR integration.
  • Yellow Duck Framework – of course, YDF, which was mentioned in a comment here. It looks very promising and lightweight.
  • MODx (GPL) – A CMS, but it’s also supposedly a framework which can easily be modified. So if you need login and CMS-like features, maybe you should look at it. FIAI: Install was easy with the wizard-installer, and it looks totally awesome! Comes with a blog application that looks very similar to WordPress, the admin interface looks sleek and web2ish.
  • Agavi – Previously Mogavi in case you’ve heard of that.
  • WASP – PHP5, seems complex (you need PEAR & Phing to install it). As they say themselves – “This isn’t your hacker’s PHP.”
  • typo3 (GPL) – Guess this is one of those CMS/Framework things. These guys have a lot of extensions (check out their website for a list). FIAI: Wizard type install, easy. The admin interface looks.. hmm, oldfashion.

Added 05.03.2006

  • eZ components 1.0 – (BSD license), supported and maintained by eZ Systems. “This final release provides 16 components that you can freely use in your PHP applications”
  • Zend Framework – (Open Source, custom Zend license), the Zend guys with their own framework. Still early, but this could be good.

Added 15.03.2006

  • Code Igniter – (Generic licence, seems similar to BSD), “Designed to enable, not overwhelm, (..) a very small footprint” + “If you’re a developer who lives in the real world of shared hosting accounts” – I like their thinking! Good looking API/docs, and they also have some nice videos. MVC of course, PHP code is written directly in the view though, so no templating system – but I guess that’s what PHP was meant for, so if you can limit yourself to only do view stuff – it’s all good!
  • Horde – (GPL), makes have use of PEAR, as many other frameworks on this list. Their tagline is “Create. Communicate. Collaborate.”
  • PHPFaces – for GUI development, create simple web forms and complex user interfaces. They have an AJAX handler.

If I actually get through some of the frameworks on this list, I plan to write a comparison review.

If you have any experience with these frameworks, let me know :)